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#336587 - 01-06-2008 14:33:41 Is it me or the juice...because it seems like a zin
David Andreozzi Offline
Crazed Wino

Registered: 12-14-2000 08:00:00
Posts: 7157
Loc: Bristol, Rhode Island
I have to say that zins of the early 90's though 97 really were a passion of mine. Turley, Ridge, etc... I bought every one I could. I loved the fun brawn spicy style along side my outdoor wood grilling. 97 was ridiculously good...one wonderful zin after another. The vintage was so good (IMHO) that even inexpensive wines were outstanding. Gallo's Rancho Zabaco that year could stand as my all time value to date.

That said...I find myself disappointed time and time again as I open the dwindling inventory of zins in my cellar. I still have 3 or four cases. Most are Turleys...but I am convinced it is not a Winery issue because their pets are being built at the same stellar level.

I opened a 01 Turley Vineyard 101 last night and it really was in pieces. This was a decent wine from a decent vintage...supposedly. I poured it out out.

At some levels I did wonder if the PASO earthquake had something to do with this...supposedly Turley's inventory was devastated, but again. Turley petites are so in line I have to think it something else.

So my question to all you zin geeks, like myself, is this...Are we on a run of the terrible vintages of zins? Are the newer wines not holding up? Or, has my palate simply changed. I have to think its the former because I remember the big massive spicy qualities...and today, I get more of a light insipid acidic style.

I would appreciate you thoughts.

Fondly,

Dave


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#336590 - 01-06-2008 16:02:51 Re: Is it me or the juice...because it seems like a zin [Re: David Andreozzi]
Roland Dumas Offline
Regular

Registered: 11-19-2003 08:00:00
Posts: 989
Loc: Napa, CA
Hmmm, we opened a Ridge Lytton Springs 2001 a couple nights ago and it was rich, complex - a very memorable wine. I tasted a long line of Ravenswoods when I was in Healdsburg and there are clearly some winners in the current line up. If you want something that is dense, fruity, and spicy, I think I dropped a note about the 05 Jimsomare. You have to fasten your seatbelt before sipping that one.

I'm personally not a fan of Turley or of Paso zins. Turleys seem way overripe and overpriced for me and other Paso zins often have a simple fruit forward structure and fall apart fairly quickly. But, that's just my taste.

I do think there are many zins of whatever style you prefer. Being a Ridge fan, I can find delights among their many offerings each vintage that suit by odd preferences (03 Lytton East anyone?)

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#336592 - 01-06-2008 19:10:42 Re: Is it me or the juice...because it seems like a zin [Re: David Andreozzi]
BEB Offline
True Southern Exposure
Crazed Wino

Registered: 01-02-2001 08:00:00
Posts: 5444
Loc: Somewhere in the Great Valley ...
Dave:

I have but 2 '97 zins left, both Ridges; a York Creek and a Lytton Sps. My thoughts are somewhat counter to yours in that I "sensed" (with no real, hard data to substantiate me) the Ridge zins becoming gloppier and sweeter in style between '97 and '03. One exception to that was the '03 Pagani where I noted:
 Quote:
Unfortunately, that long finish is also punctuated with an alcoholic hotness. This is surprisingly deep and rich to be so young; and while full bodied, there is nothing subtle about it. It’s a big, brash wine.
So, if you think zins have become light, insipid and acidic in style, maybe you have a bit of palate drift going on. It happens ......or perhaps ...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
you've just burned your palate with all that Turley and Pride you drink. \:\/
_________________________
BEB

"I've wrestled with reality for 35 years and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd

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#336598 - 01-06-2008 21:57:07 Tastes Change…. [Re: David Andreozzi]
Everett Bandman Online   content
Local

Registered: 12-12-2000 08:00:00
Posts: 1475
Over the 35 years I've been tasting wines, I find my preferences evolve over time. Perhaps yours are as well. Thanks to Jim Cowan I've "discovered" Beaujolais, after 35 years even old horses can find new things to enjoy. Look elsewhere for a while, and who knows you may find something to replace the excitement you had for those 97 zins in some other wine....

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#336600 - 01-06-2008 22:00:43 Re: Is it me or the juice...because it seems like a zin [Re: BEB]
David Andreozzi Offline
Crazed Wino

Registered: 12-14-2000 08:00:00
Posts: 7157
Loc: Bristol, Rhode Island
Truth be told... I washed the aftertaste down with a 2001 Shafer Relentless...no light weight!

I really don't think this is a Turley thing...or I would thin I would have seen the same drop off in the pets. As far as Ridge...I have always love Draper's wines...though I have only bought the Monte Bello futures over recent years.

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#336601 - 01-06-2008 22:22:00 Re: It is the juice [Re: David Andreozzi]
Kurt W. Offline
Obsessed
Member

Registered: 02-16-2004 23:51:12
Posts: 392
Hard to say exactly why the '01 Turley did not perform as expected. I would say don't give up. I've had alot if zins in the 2000-2004 vintage range and I do not see a major stylistic change from the late '90's or even '97. Go ahead and try a recent vintage of Ravenswood (Sonoma County) Old Vine, St. Francis, or Graziano. You just might experience those spicy charms again!

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#336616 - 01-07-2008 14:33:57 It's not you... [Re: David Andreozzi]
JFO Offline
Elvis Has Entered the Building!

Registered: 12-13-2000 08:00:00
Posts: 13065
Loc: America - Free and Proud!
...you're trying to age Turleys. You're trying to age Zins. These are not things that a rationale person would do and hope for success. To top it off, styles are moving more toward fruit bomby, goupy, drink me now wines with high alcohol. Trying to age that only exacerbates the problem. Look at that Carlisle Syrah I had the other day as an example.

Lastly, you're drinking Saxum and loving it - it's no wonder your Turley's taste like flat acid. \:\)
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#336618 - 01-07-2008 14:39:17 Re: It's not you... [Re: JFO]
BEB Offline
True Southern Exposure
Crazed Wino

Registered: 01-02-2001 08:00:00
Posts: 5444
Loc: Somewhere in the Great Valley ...
 Originally Posted By: JFO
...you're trying to age Turleys. You're trying to age Zins. These are not things that a rationale person would do and hope for success. ....

Lastly, you're drinking Saxum and loving it - it's no wonder your Turley's taste like flat acid. \:\)


I was with you until that "trying to age Zins comment." Zins can age, and yes, they can be even better. Just ask TomHill. Now, what will become of the Ridge Zins from '99 to '03, I'm not real sure.

But I'm with you on everything else you said about David....and probably everything else you were thinking about him as well. ;\)
_________________________
BEB

"I've wrestled with reality for 35 years and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd

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#336619 - 01-07-2008 14:43:47 Re: It's not you... [Re: JFO]
David Andreozzi Offline
Crazed Wino

Registered: 12-14-2000 08:00:00
Posts: 7157
Loc: Bristol, Rhode Island
I read that review of the Carlisle... it made me wish I had tasted it with you. I just received and email from Carlisle...it will be at least another year on the waiting list...bummer.

I still have older Turleys which are still together, and built in the big brawny style I love...this is my point. I really don't think its a vineyard specific thing...and dont plan to stop buying them soon.

I would be interested to hear from somebody that makes zins in paso area to tell me if I am experience a vintage issue...

Fondly

Dave

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#336620 - 01-07-2008 14:46:31 Re: It's not you... [Re: BEB]
David Andreozzi Offline
Crazed Wino

Registered: 12-14-2000 08:00:00
Posts: 7157
Loc: Bristol, Rhode Island
 Originally Posted By: BEB
But I'm with you on everything else you said about David....and probably everything else you were thinking about him as well. ;\)


...well...that was a damn good response! I actually speechless for once...but laughing!

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#336633 - 01-07-2008 18:38:36 97 York Creek [Re: BEB]
Bryan Gros Offline
Local

Registered: 03-28-2001 08:00:00
Posts: 1341
Loc: Oakland,CA
As an aside, I brought my 97 York Creek to a Christmas party. Was really nice and complex, far from over the hill.

Not sure how my 95 Dusi Ranch is holding up though...

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#336639 - 01-07-2008 19:05:39 Re: 97 York Creek [Re: Bryan Gros]
David Andreozzi Offline
Crazed Wino

Registered: 12-14-2000 08:00:00
Posts: 7157
Loc: Bristol, Rhode Island
Hi Bryan,

97 was ridiculous...

I would love to retaste some Ridges from 91-94... but they are all gone! :^)

Dave

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#336642 - 01-07-2008 19:33:41 Asking TomHill.. [Re: BEB]
TomHill Online   content
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Elvis Has Entered the Building!

Registered: 02-15-2004 17:42:19
Posts: 12128
Loc: LosAlamos
 Originally Posted By: BEB

I was with you until that "trying to age Zins comment." Zins can age, and yes, they can be even better. Just ask TomHill. Now, what will become of the Ridge Zins from '99 to '03, I'm not real sure.


And he will tell you that sure/you betcha, Zins can age. But as I've been going thru some older stuff, it's not a no-brainer to pick out the ones that will well. Ripped open 3 of the Ravenswood Zins last night (Cooke/Dickerson/OldHill). Dead?? Not by a long shot. Survivors?? Yeah/for sure. Pleasurable?? Not really. What I call an Oakland wine....there's no there there.
Probably the most reliable for aging are the Ridges (and I see no reason the later Ridges won't age well...that's my hunch). The drinking recs they put on the side label are pretty accurate, if somewhat on the conservative side. So one would conclude that it's all about balance if a Zin will age well. The Ridges seen to. But, OTOH, the Nalle's don't seem to age particularly well.
My suspicion that the big/alcoholic Zins that we see a lot of these days won't age particularly well. That particularly applies to the Turleys. But then, every so often, I'll hit up an older Turley that's wonderful w/ maturity.
The Carlisles??? I've don't recall a single one that I've thought over-the-hill. Some have not developed as well as I'd expected. But when I taste them, I sense a certain structure to them that makes me confident they'll do well with time. Mike's wines are a certain style that I happen to like. Maybe it's just because I can't crack a Carlisle w/o seeing in my mind (son) Riley w/ a whole friggin' box of powdered sugar dumped over his head. Talk about a "whiteface"!!
So...yeah...Zins can age....and age well. But it's a bit of a crapshoot, much more so than Syrah, say.
So....if you're asking TomHill....that's just my thoughts. But, then, what would I know?? Still learning about Zin and all its nuances and manifestations...after all these yrs!! :-)
Tom

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#336676 - 01-08-2008 20:46:13 Not a no brainer [Re: TomHill]
Bob Summers Offline
Donor
Local

Registered: 03-12-2001 08:00:00
Posts: 1817
Loc: 23 ft toy hauler - various loc...
I agree with you there, Tom. Would you say that that on the whole, Howell Mountain Zins would be the best bet for aging? I've had examples from Ridge, D-cubed, HMV, that have been very stern wines in their youth but showed nicely 5 years out and beyond. I wonder if Turley's Black Sears bottling would be an example or if the style would trump the source.

Some of the drought year zins like Cary Gott's Montevina wines from the mid `70's held for decades, as did the Carneros Creek `75 Eschen.

Radio Coteau's Von Weidlich Zins seem to have what it takes for further development but are easier to drink in their youth than the Ridge Occidentals from the same source.

Finally, if you ever get chance to try some of Michael Ripley-Lotee's stash of pre-bonded 1974 Lytton Springs Zin you'll be led to believe he must have a 38 degree cellar (maybe he does), it's that fresh!
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#336682 - 01-08-2008 22:34:46 Re: Not a no brainer [Re: Bob Summers]
TomHill Online   content
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Elvis Has Entered the Building!

Registered: 02-15-2004 17:42:19
Posts: 12128
Loc: LosAlamos
 Originally Posted By: Bob Summers
I agree with you there, Tom. Would you say that that on the whole, Howell Mountain Zins would be the best bet for aging? I've had examples from Ridge, D-cubed, HMV, that have been very stern wines in their youth but showed nicely 5 years out and beyond. I wonder if Turley's Black Sears bottling would be an example or if the style would trump the source.

Some of the drought year zins like Cary Gott's Montevina wines from the mid `70's held for decades, as did the Carneros Creek `75 Eschen.

Radio Coteau's Von Weidlich Zins seem to have what it takes for further development but are easier to drink in their youth than the Ridge Occidentals from the same source.

Finally, if you ever get chance to try some of Michael Ripley-Lotee's stash of pre-bonded 1974 Lytton Springs Zin you'll be led to believe he must have a 38 degree cellar (maybe he does), it's that fresh!


Bob,
I agree that many of the HowellMtn Zins are good candidates for aging. Oftimes, they can be pretty hard/tannic/stern/severe in their youth, but they can oft develop really well with age.
The cold-climate Zins from up around Occidental and the SantaCruzMtn ones are also good candidates.
But these are still no slam-dunks (Kansas colloquialism for "sure thing") for aging, just somewhat better odds.
Tom

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#336683 - 01-08-2008 22:55:34 Re: Is it me or the juice...because it seems like a zin [Re: David Andreozzi]
Paully Offline
Regular

Registered: 02-16-2004 21:42:14
Posts: 828
Loc: Omaha
Probably a phase for me but lately im enjoying drink younger zins, Quivira and Seghasio,Rafenelli - 2000's are drinking beautiful, Taltey, Dry creek. So, I havent cellar anything in the zins lately, but have drank some nice oldies lately. 94-97 yrs

Jessup 96 Atlas peak
Williams Selyem 94 Mendo
Martenelli 97 Jack ass Vinyard
Turley 97 old vines
I think i even had a Dashe

Happy New Yr Dave
paul


Edited by Paully (01-08-2008 22:58:13)
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#336686 - 01-09-2008 00:42:38 Re: Not a new phenomenon [Re: David Andreozzi]
DonnyMac Offline
Member

Registered: 02-19-2004 20:50:01
Posts: 269
Loc: Los Angeles, CA (actually, Gle...
Without boring you with the backstory, this weekend I opened and tasted ten 1982 Storybook Mountain Vineyard Zins and eight 1981 Dusi Ranch zins from a producer whose name I cannot remember right now (not Ridge or Peachy Canyon). All had been well stored but were total piss, either sherry flavored port or shrill cherry colored lemon juice. I have had a few decent aged Zins but none that were enjoyable beyond the 15 year mark, and even those are few and far between.

It's hardly limited to Zin either, because I also opened a 1975 Bordeaux from one of the "Super Seconds" and a 1982 Puligny-Montachet and they sucked too. Bottom line is that I don't believe wine is made for extended aging. Yes, it changes, but rarely for the better past the 5-10 year mark, or even sooner in the case of some varieties like Zin whose charm is their fruit.
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