Stemware influence - real or imagined?

Posted by: Eric_Anderson

Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-19-2009 19:25:01

Riedel's got a glass for nearly every wine. Sometimes it's a different bowl shape; other times it's a change in size. Is this just good marketing or science? Is the perception that this enhances the wine real or imagined?

Hey, I've smelled and tasted the differences ...or did I?
Posted by: John Tomasso

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-19-2009 19:59:18

I don't think it's imagined - I'm a believer.
OTOH, I have neither the patience nor the resources to buy a set of stems for every single oddball variety I may decide to drink.

If that means I have to choke down my Cote Rotie from a Burgundy stem, well then, I'll just have to suffer.
Posted by: larry schaffer

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-19-2009 20:13:35

Eric,

Dude - are you just trying to stir the pot here? You were at the Riedel seminar at HdR, right?

I was BLOWN AWAY by how differently the wines both smelled and tasted at that seminar. Not to say that I agreed with Georg in terms of what each glass did, but there can be no denying each wine came across as different in each of the glasses . . .

Does that mean that you need to have a different glass for each variety? Not sold on that . . . .

But if you go to a tasting and different folks have different glasses, all you need to do is a side by side . . . and your 'this wine is a dog' may turn into 'hey, this smells GREAT out of YOUR glass' . . .

Cheers!
Posted by: LarryA

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-19-2009 20:16:37

Some of the differences are definitely real. Try pinot in a Vinum Bordeaux and a Vinum Burg -- big difference.

More fun: try a pinot in a Vinum Burg, a Vinum Sommelier, and a special Oregon Pinot glass (a bit hard to find). Also differences, but which one is best depends on what pinot you're drinking. (I did this at a Riedel seminar at World of Pinot Noir last year.) Overall the Vinum Burg was most likely to be the best with all pinots, and the Oregon Pinot least likely. From other experience, the Sommelier Burg seems to be best with older pinots.

Other glasses I like: White Burg Sommeliers with chardonnay, white burg, and Sauternes; Vinum Syrah with syrah, but Vinum Bordeaux essentially just as good; Vinum Bordeaux good with cab and bordeaux, but Vinum Burg good with older Bordeaux.

The one Riedel glass that performs its assigned function better than any: Sommelier Sauternes. Sauternes are definitely different and definitely better in this glass. Hard to admit, but worth the investment if you like Sauternes and Barsac.

Another comment: the Sommelier Burgundy and Bordeaux, which are very large (contain a bottle of wine, I've tried it), don't work very well if you're at a wine tasting where the pours are 1-1.5 oz. Great with big pours, but with small pours it seems like the breathing space of the glass overwhelms the small amount of fluid contained therein.

There are many other glasses. I don't think I have the patience to try them all, and certainly don't have the money or storage space to buy them all. The least useful/specific is the standard Vinum Chardonnay. Not a bad glass, but it doesn't seem to enhance the wine intended to be served in it.
Posted by: Eric_Anderson

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-19-2009 20:21:15

Originally Posted By: larry schaffer
Eric,

Dude - are you just trying to stir the pot here? You were at the Riedel seminar at HdR, right?

I was BLOWN AWAY by how differently the wines both smelled and tasted at that seminar. Not to say that I agreed with Georg in terms of what each glass did, but there can be no denying each wine came across as different in each of the glasses . . .

Does that mean that you need to have a different glass for each variety? Not sold on that . . . .

But if you go to a tasting and different folks have different glasses, all you need to do is a side by side . . . and your 'this wine is a dog' may turn into 'hey, this smells GREAT out of YOUR glass' . . .

Cheers!

Me, stir? cool Yeah, I was there - and have done these seminars before. Maybe it's just mass hypnosis?

So, doesn't this call into question every TN and score you've ever read?
Posted by: larry schaffer

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-19-2009 20:34:50

Originally Posted By: Eric_Anderson
Originally Posted By: larry schaffer
Eric,

Dude - are you just trying to stir the pot here? You were at the Riedel seminar at HdR, right?

I was BLOWN AWAY by how differently the wines both smelled and tasted at that seminar. Not to say that I agreed with Georg in terms of what each glass did, but there can be no denying each wine came across as different in each of the glasses . . .

Does that mean that you need to have a different glass for each variety? Not sold on that . . . .

But if you go to a tasting and different folks have different glasses, all you need to do is a side by side . . . and your 'this wine is a dog' may turn into 'hey, this smells GREAT out of YOUR glass' . . .

Cheers!

Me, stir? cool Yeah, I was there - and have done these seminars before. Maybe it's just mass hypnosis?

So, doesn't this call into question every TN and score you've ever read?


Why yes it does . . . . as does length of aeration, whether decanted or not, temperature of room, age of bottle after bottling . . . . yada yada yada
Posted by: BTraub

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-19-2009 21:29:54

I can understand and accept the idea that different shapes can impact the aromatic profile of a wine significantly.

I have a harder time accepting the idea that the taste is impacted that much. Granted, taste is certainly affected by smell, so to that extent there may be an effect. But Riedel's claim that the different shapes deliver the wine differently to different parts of the tongue and thus impact the palate perception of the wine makes less sense to me. Mainly because I think different people sip differently--the way different mouths interact with the glass will differ, the shape and size of the mouth, the amount and manner of sipping the wine will differ, the quantity of wine taken with each sip, etc., will all render the differences attributable to the shape of the glass and its rim pretty difficult to quantify even subjectively. Just too many variables, IMO.
Posted by: larry schaffer

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-19-2009 21:32:24

Bennet,

All I can say is that the Riedel seminar at HdR proved to me that this IS the case - delivering the wine to different parts of your mouth WILL impact flavors . . . If you skip over the tip of your tongue, you will get a different sensation of the wine . . . Now if you swoosh the wine all around your mouth, the point may be moot . . . but I'm not so sure.

Interesting to think about, at least!!!
Posted by: Eric_Anderson

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-19-2009 21:52:12

Originally Posted By: larry schaffer
Originally Posted By: Eric_Anderson
Originally Posted By: larry schaffer
Eric,

Dude - are you just trying to stir the pot here? You were at the Riedel seminar at HdR, right?

I was BLOWN AWAY by how differently the wines both smelled and tasted at that seminar. Not to say that I agreed with Georg in terms of what each glass did, but there can be no denying each wine came across as different in each of the glasses . . .

Does that mean that you need to have a different glass for each variety? Not sold on that . . . .

But if you go to a tasting and different folks have different glasses, all you need to do is a side by side . . . and your 'this wine is a dog' may turn into 'hey, this smells GREAT out of YOUR glass' . . .

Cheers!

Me, stir? cool Yeah, I was there - and have done these seminars before. Maybe it's just mass hypnosis?

So, doesn't this call into question every TN and score you've ever read?


Why yes it does . . . . as does length of aeration, whether decanted or not, temperature of room, age of bottle after bottling . . . . yada yada yada

Yet we shell out $$ for unique stemware. Cognitive dissonance at work.
Posted by: Everett Bandman

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-19-2009 22:20:16

Originally Posted By: BTraub
I can understand and accept the idea that different shapes can impact the aromatic profile of a wine significantly.

I have a harder time accepting the idea that the taste is impacted that much. Granted, taste is certainly affected by smell, so to that extent there may be an effect. But Riedel's claim that the different shapes deliver the wine differently to different parts of the tongue and thus impact the palate perception of the wine makes less sense to me. Mainly because I think different people sip differently--the way different mouths interact with the glass will differ, the shape and size of the mouth, the amount and manner of sipping the wine will differ, the quantity of wine taken with each sip, etc., will all render the differences attributable to the shape of the glass and its rim pretty difficult to quantify even subjectively. Just too many variables, IMO.

Bennett, Virtually all taste is actually olfactory. The olfactory system is infinitely more complex than the taste bud system on the tongue. Try tasting while pinching your nose shut. If you eliminate retronasal stimulation of the olfactory system, you essentially won't taste much.

I think one can't completely discount the impact of delivering a wine sample to different parts of the tongue, but those of us who aspirate in air along with the wine and swirl around the mouth at the same time, would seem to overwhelm the glass shape effect. Nevertheless, I agree with Larry that a wine "tastes" very different in different glasses. I attribute that to the fact that taste is a process that happens in the mind from all the sensory input. I'd love to see a trained tasting panel identify the same wine presented in different glasses in the dark. Most of Riedel's research is aimed at showing that shape matters. No one has done the opposite to show it doesn't as far as I know.
Posted by: Sean_Devaney

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-19-2009 23:19:59

[/quote]
I'd love to see a trained tasting panel identify the same wine presented in different glasses in the dark. Most of Riedel's research is aimed at showing that shape matters. No one has done the opposite to show it doesn't as far as I know. [/quote]

This is what I would like to see also. I know different glass's do make a difference with different varieties of wines (and I think this is more pronounced in some varieties than others)but I have no inclanation nor shelf space to have a different glass's for each variety of wine.

FWIW my house glass's are Riedel restaurant Syrah/Shiraz glasses and Schott-Zwiesel basic Burgundy glass's-these cover the majority of wines I drink just fine. I do own 3 Riedel Sommelier Burgundy's but I am way too clummsy to use these verry often crazy
Posted by: Alan Rath

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-19-2009 23:23:19

Originally Posted By: Everett Bandman
but those of us who aspirate in air along with the wine and swirl around the mouth at the same time, would seem to overwhelm the glass shape effect.
That's been my resistance to the idea of glass shape affecting the taste. I'm willing to buy in to some fleeting difference just at the point you start sipping the wine, but I don't think I've ever made a judgment about a wine at that point. Even then, if you think about the two methods of drawing a taste: either slowly by taking smallish amounts together with air, or in a bigger gulp, I don't see how the glass shape could make much difference.

One time I lined up a bunch of different glasses. Turns out that there really isn't that much variation in the size of the openings on many glasses; from a hand waving physics POV, it's hard for me to believe the wine somehow pours differently from different shapes. Remember that to get the wine out of the glass, the surface has to be even with the lip, so whatever the shape, it's covered up at that point. Think of water flowing over a dam: doesn't really matter what shape the dam is under the water.

As for aroma, I'll relate a story I think I've told before: a few years ago in a group tasting I was the only one to pick up a corked wine. Turns out I had picked up a different glass from everyone else (I had a kind of crappy shallow burgundy glass, everyone else had chardonnay style glasses). Soon as I let other people smell the wine from my glass the TCA was obvious. Interesting, even though I still remain skeptical of the whole glass shape thing.

Cheers
Posted by: Bob Summers

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-20-2009 00:02:53

Originally Posted By: BTraub
I can understand and accept the idea that different shapes can impact the aromatic profile of a wine significantly.

I have a harder time accepting the idea that the taste is impacted that much. Granted, taste is certainly affected by smell, so to that extent there may be an effect. But Riedel's claim that the different shapes deliver the wine differently to different parts of the tongue and thus impact the palate perception of the wine makes less sense to me. Mainly because I think different people sip differently--the way different mouths interact with the glass will differ, the shape and size of the mouth, the amount and manner of sipping the wine will differ, the quantity of wine taken with each sip, etc., will all render the differences attributable to the shape of the glass and its rim pretty difficult to quantify even subjectively. Just too many variables, IMO.


A few years ago there was a vocal group who said that an inexpensive Lennox stem that looked nearly identical to a Riedel Sommelier Burgundy stem was a good substitute. We did a side by side taste test with an aged Burgundy, a young Burgundy and a young Calif Pinot. The Riedel spread the wine across the palate while the Lennox seamed to focus it in a stream (one said like a waterslide) down the middle. The Sommelier was preferred by everyone for the Burgundies. Most preferred the Lennox for the young Calif Pinot because the Riedel seemed to expose it's flaws.
Posted by: ksyrah

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-20-2009 02:47:53

Quote:
If that means I have to choke down my Cote Rotie from a Burgundy stem, well then, I'll just have to suffer.

According to Georg, the burg stem is a good substitute for syrah. As far as the Bordeaux stem, "People. Look at me. Look at my eyes. Do NOT use the Bordeaux glass for the shiraz. It is the worst glass for shiraz. It has a similar shape and only differs by an inch, but it's a very important inch". (Not quite an exact quote, I've drunk too much syrah since then.)

-Al
Posted by: BTraub

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-20-2009 03:40:32

Originally Posted By: ksyrah
Quote:
If that means I have to choke down my Cote Rotie from a Burgundy stem, well then, I'll just have to suffer.

According to Georg, the burg stem is a good substitute for syrah. As far as the Bordeaux stem, "People. Look at me. Look at my eyes. Do NOT use the Bordeaux glass for the shiraz. It is the worst glass for shiraz. It has a similar shape and only differs by an inch, but it's a very important inch". (Not quite an exact quote, I've drunk too much syrah since then.)

-Al


Well, call me a cynic, but I just can't get past the fact that Georg has a financial interest in getting everyone to buy as many different shapes as possible. Doesn't mean he's not right, but. . .
Posted by: blil

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-20-2009 06:25:15

I think it's very real...up to a point.

I'm a firm believer in the difference between, say, a Pinot Noir in a Burgundy glass and the same Pinot in a Bordeaux glass. You'd have to be nuts (or a really stubborn cynic) to deny the different aromatics.

OTOH, I'm not so sure there's a huge difference between, say, the Bordeaux and Brunello glasses. At least there isn't enough to make me want to go out and buy the Brunello glasses.

I like the Shiraz glasses. They're great for new world Syrah and new world Rhone blends. But I like the Burgundy glass for old style Rhones.

I use the Chianti/Zin/Riesling glass for all white wines, roses and dessert wines. I love the shape of that one. Overall, I think it's a huge step up from the Chardonnay glass. But I don't like that glass for reds. I prefer to drink my Chianti and Zinfandel from the Bordeaux glass.

The Prestige Cuvee Champagne flute is quite nice. The laser-etched "bubbler" in the bottom of the bowl keeps a fine stream of bubbles working up through the middle of the glass.

For pure drama, my favorite two Riedels are the single malt glass and the Hennessy VSOP glass. Try those two and I guarantee you'll toss out all your tumblers and brandy snifters.
Posted by: ksyrah

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-20-2009 14:55:38

My favorite is the sommelier hermitage glass. But I don't use them often because they are somewhat fragile.

-Al
Posted by: Everett Bandman

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-20-2009 15:19:16

Originally Posted By: Alan Rath
Interesting, even though I still remain skeptical of the whole glass shape thing.

I remember the days of scientific skepticism well wink Won't even believe your own observations, unless their scientifically valid. grin
Posted by: blil

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-20-2009 15:21:27

I'm quite proud of the fact that I've shown remarkable restraint for the past 15 years by limiting myself to the Vinum series. grin
Posted by: Eric_Anderson

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-20-2009 19:03:14

Originally Posted By: Everett Bandman
Originally Posted By: Alan Rath
Interesting, even though I still remain skeptical of the whole glass shape thing.

I remember the days of scientific skepticism well wink Won't even believe your own observations, unless their scientifically valid. grin

The Earth is round! News at 11:00! laugh
Posted by: BEB

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-20-2009 19:23:28

Originally Posted By: ksyrah
My favorite is the sommelier hermitage glass. But I don't use them often because they are somewhat fragile.
but you have one more than you had 4 months ago! wink cool
Posted by: Roland Dumas

tell me.... - 06-20-2009 19:33:05

is the shape of the glass for shiraz different than the shape for syrah?
Posted by: Eric_Anderson

Re: tell me.... - 06-20-2009 20:46:26

Originally Posted By: Roland Dumas
is the shape of the glass for shiraz different than the shape for syrah?

Hmmm, w/o looking at a catalog I don't know for sure. I can say that at the Riedel seminar at HdR this year, we tried three wines: '05 Guigal St. Joseph, '05 Elderton Shiraz, and '07 Miner La Diligence Syrah; in 4 different glasses. 2 of the 4 glasses were the Sommelier Hermitage 0400/30 and the Vinum Extreme Syrah 4444/30. IIRC, I found that I preferred the Vinum for the Shiraz, but preferred the Somm for both the St. Joseph and the Syrah.
Posted by: Alan Rath

Re: tell me.... - 06-20-2009 23:19:26

If you look closely, there are a nearly microsopic series of grooves in the edge of the Shiraz glass, the purpose of which is to funnel the oak molecules to specific tongue receptors that are most sensitive to the flavors of newly sanded wood. By pure blind luck, I've also discovered that rubbing a thin film of Lemon Pledge on these grooves really enhances the oak nuances of any wine that has the words "Molly,", "Foot", or "(insert small furry animal name here)" crazy
Posted by: Roland Dumas

Re: tell me.... - 06-21-2009 00:10:56

Originally Posted By: Alan Rath
If you look closely, there are a nearly microsopic series of grooves in the edge of the Shiraz glass, the purpose of which is to funnel the oak molecules to specific tongue receptors that are most sensitive to the flavors of newly sanded wood.


thank you for clarifying. Is the direction of the grooves reversed for shiraz from the southern hemisphere?
Posted by: blil

Re: tell me.... - 06-21-2009 00:53:01

Actually, the Southern Hemisphere Shiraz glass has grooves cut in the pattern of a Bloomin' Onion.
Posted by: BEB

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-21-2009 12:18:54

Originally Posted By: Eric_Anderson
Originally Posted By: larry schaffer
Eric,

Dude - are you just trying to stir the pot here? You were at the Riedel seminar at HdR, right?

I was BLOWN AWAY by how differently the wines both smelled and tasted at that seminar. Not to say that I agreed with Georg in terms of what each glass did, but there can be no denying each wine came across as different in each of the glasses . . .

Does that mean that you need to have a different glass for each variety? Not sold on that . . . .

But if you go to a tasting and different folks have different glasses, all you need to do is a side by side . . . and your 'this wine is a dog' may turn into 'hey, this smells GREAT out of YOUR glass' . . .

Cheers!

Me, stir? cool ...

So, doesn't this call into question every TN and score you've ever read?

It certainly does. Even Arpy commented after tasting with Riedel stemware that he would have to re-write all his prior tasting notes. He's a believer. But extrapolating out, how many wines failed to break the 90 point barrier that would have been rated higher had he tasted using a Riedel and vice versa? But I'm sure you didn't intend to stir the pot so much as to call the scoring system into question, did you Eric? whistle
Posted by: BEB

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-21-2009 13:03:03

Originally Posted By: Bob Summers
A few years ago there was a vocal group who said that an inexpensive Lennox stem that looked nearly identical to a Riedel Sommelier Burgundy stem was a good substitute. We did a side by side taste test with an aged Burgundy, a young Burgundy and a young Calif Pinot. The Riedel spread the wine across the palate while the Lennox seamed to focus it in a stream (one said like a waterslide) down the middle. The Sommelier was preferred by everyone for the Burgundies. Most preferred the Lennox for the young Calif Pinot because the Riedel seemed to expose it's flaws.

Bob,
Did everyone know which wine was in which glass at the tasting or was that revealed after everyone had tasted and commented on the wines? The power of suggestion and expectation is so very strong that often objectivity is the first victim.
Posted by: BEB

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-21-2009 13:52:14

Eric:

I'll bet you were hell on your teachers in grade school what with lobbing one liners from the back row!

I know someone who has been ITB for a long time. He refers to Georg Reidel as a snake oil salesman. Yet, he has worked for a wine company that has been a big proponent of Reidel. It appears that even within the industry, there are strong opinions on both sides of this question.

Like most who have responded here, I'm a believer .... up to a point. I don't buy into the idea that every varietal must have a different glass. When you get down to it, Reidel doesn't believe it, either personally or institutionally. Reidel uses only 6 different styles of glasses in his personal residence (see WS re-print that was in the promotional materiel given to Reidal seminar attendees). Institutionally, the difference in design between, say, the Somm. Montrachet and the Vinum Extreme Chardonnay, is so marked that I'm left wondering how they can both be the best for Chardonnay. The difference, I suggest, is marketing only and has nothing to do with "finely tuned instruments" for interpreting Chardonnay. And why did Gorg Reidel feel compelled to tell the crowd at the HdR seminar that Vinum Bordeaux glasses are "the worst glasses" for drinking Syrah? Because the glasses are so similar that many use them for dual purposes. Reidel wants us to believe we aren't maximizing our drinking enjoyment if we double up on the glass use. He wants us to go out and purchase different stemware. That it helps his bottom line is, of course, a mere convenient coincidence.

As much as I enjoyed the Reidel seminar - and I did enjoy it - Gorg Reidel, while very entertaining and very attuned to playing to his audience, nevertheless, left no opportunity for independent thinking. He suggests what you smell and taste before you do so. Sometimes I disagreed with him and sometimes I agreed with him. But the power of suggestion is so strong, that I had to discount the extent to which I agreed or disagreed. Was I disagreeing because I really thought contrary to his view or was I disagreeing because I wanted/needed to rebel against Reidel's leading comments? While I was very entertained and amused by the presentation, I was hardly an independent observer. How can you not like a guy (and his comments) who just gifted some generous swag! Mr. Reidel understands human nature very well.

As to the question of whether the "perception that [different stemware]enhances the wine real or imagined," perception is reality.
Posted by: Mel Hill

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-21-2009 14:25:46

You will buy my glasses!
Posted by: blil

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-21-2009 14:58:09

You figure RP just chooses between a Bordeaux and Burgundy glass? Or does he have the full compliment of Riedels at his disposal for taking notes?
Posted by: KenMusso

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-21-2009 15:46:19

I'm definitely on baord.
Just wish they didn't break so easily as once again I find have none left!
Posted by: Sean_Devaney

Re: tell me.... - 06-21-2009 15:58:33

Originally Posted By: Roland Dumas
is the shape of the glass for shiraz different than the shape for syrah?


It is the same glass: Riedel Restaurant Syrah, Shiraz 446/30. This glass is used by Rosenblum, Dashe, JC Cellars, A Donkey and A Goat, East Bay Vintners Alliance and others for their tastings.
Posted by: Everett Bandman

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-21-2009 16:25:59

Originally Posted By: BEB
As to the question of whether the "perception that [different stemware]enhances the wine real or imagined," perception is reality.

When it come to taste, that is true enough, BUT, keep in mind that it really does happen in the mind, not on the tongue or in the nose. What you see, what you hear, and what you feel all come into play, when it comes to taste. Good advertisers and marketers have no trouble influencing taste. When I was teaching at UCD, I always used as an example the Lays potato chip commercial, with the sound of someone crunching a crisp chip, with the announcer stating "bet you can't eat just one". Most of us don't recognize how much sound plays in palatability of some foods. I'm pretty certain it would be possible to show scientifically that the Riedel effect is partially due to psychological factors. Wouldn't be very useful marketing information though, compared to the hypotheses that Riedel has put forward.
Posted by: Roland Dumas

look into my eye.... - 06-21-2009 17:03:21

What's plausible: different shapes/sizes of glass will enable aromas to be contained in the bowl at different amounts. Perhaps different shapes and sizes differentially enable compounds to volatilize as the wine is swirled. Some wines, say ones with complex but delicate aromas, will benefit more from larger bowls that trap aromas better.

What's not plausible: That the shape of the glass will differentially direct the liquid into different patterns on the tongue when you slurp and will interact with the different flavor profiles of wines to specifically enhance one varietal from one region. Way too much variability in all parts of the mechanics to be plausible, AND you aren't tasting those varietal profiles on your tongue, but in your nose. (remember, you have only 4 kinds of taste buds).

When in grad school (circa 1066), our hypnosis research lab needed subjects, so we did what they do in any psych department, we herded the freshmen into a room and picked the ones who were compatible with our research objectives. We hypnotized the whole room (100-200) and gave progressively more challenging suggestions so that we could tell who was very hypnotizable, who moderately, and who not at all. Most of the people could be guided to have suggested experiences. Sensing suggestions were on the easy end of the scale - smelling something that was not there or not smelling something that was there. The subjects genuinely experienced what we were suggesting.

We also compared what the magicians and hucksters did to hypnosis, and the comparisons were rather interesting.

Net net:
Likely, some glass shapes influence the degree of experience one gets from wine, and that some types of wine differentially benefit from this. The big bordeaux glass is a waste when sampling cold riesling, perhaps. There might be a few shapes/sizes that one could loosely associate with different types of wine.

Beyond that, the wine aficionado public is akin to the room of willing subjects, willing to suspend disbelief and able to experience the suggested sensations as directed by the hypnotist/magician/charlatan in front of the room.

Once you've bought in, then you're in the realm of social psychology, chapter on cognitive dissonance.

5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1, *snap* and now you'll awaken refreshed, and not remember a thing.....

Posted by: Eric_Anderson

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-21-2009 17:39:02

Originally Posted By: Everett Bandman
Originally Posted By: BEB
As to the question of whether the "perception that [different stemware]enhances the wine real or imagined," perception is reality.

When it come to taste, that is true enough, BUT, keep in mind that it really does happen in the mind, not on the tongue or in the nose. What you see, what you hear, and what you feel all come into play, when it comes to taste. Good advertisers and marketers have no trouble influencing taste. When I was teaching at UCD, I always used as an example the Lays potato chip commercial, with the sound of someone crunching a crisp chip, with the announcer stating "bet you can't eat just one". Most of us don't recognize how much sound plays in palatability of some foods. I'm pretty certain it would be possible to show scientifically that the Riedel effect is partially due to psychological factors. Wouldn't be very useful marketing information though, compared to the hypotheses that Riedel has put forward.

Okay, say I'm into it 100%. What's next? I mean, if I believe that each and every variety needs its own glass to extract maximum benefit/pleasure, what do I do to take it to THE NEXT LEVEL? There's no denying there's another control level - I mean there's gotta be! So, I want to turn it up to 11. I'm pretty sure that this should translate to my wine-tasting surroundings and companions. So, with this in mind, I need to be sipping Bordeaux from a Riedel stem while joined by Louis XV, or whomever made the '45 Latour, or the Count of Monte Cristo....
Posted by: Roland Dumas

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-21-2009 17:42:11

Originally Posted By: Eric_Anderson

Okay, say I'm into it 100%. What's next? I mean, if I believe that each and every variety needs its own glass to extract maximum benefit/pleasure, what do I do to take it to THE NEXT LEVEL?


Left handed vs. right handed glasses cool
Posted by: Everett Bandman

Nicely stated.... - 06-21-2009 17:47:44

certainly understand your skepticism and cynicism and the basis for it.
Posted by: Everett Bandman

Not sure you need the Count, but - 06-21-2009 17:59:54

don't you think sharing a special bottle you like with someone who shares your passion for it, makes it taste even better. This could have an even greater effect than glass shape, don't you think wink It's one of the reasons wine critics, prefer to taste alone.
Posted by: Roland Dumas

Re: Not sure you need the Count, but - 06-21-2009 18:29:39

I was going to suggest he does need the Count to fully appreciate the 45 Latour, but since the Count is fictional and the Author is indisposed, I, as the descendant of the author, will be there in his stead. wink
Posted by: Everett Bandman

Re: Not sure you need the Count, but - 06-21-2009 18:42:44

Posted by: Eric_Anderson

Re: Not sure you need the Count, but - 06-22-2009 05:08:19

Originally Posted By: Roland Dumas
I was going to suggest he does need the Count to fully appreciate the 45 Latour, but since the Count is fictional and the Author is indisposed, I, as the descendant of the author, will be there in his stead. wink

Alexandre! Roland is apparently in San Mateo!
Posted by: Roland Dumas

Ok, problem solved here..... - 06-24-2009 14:24:56

George Heritier happened upon a Wine Institute brochure that includes a solution to this question.
Posted by: Eric_Anderson

Re: Ok, problem solved here..... - 06-24-2009 15:00:38

Well, there you have it! Individual stemware is a solution in search of a problem. I do like the plastic tumbler suggestion as well. From personal experience, swirling in one of those is really the best way to get into the party - and get your friends into it too!
Posted by: BEB

Re: Stemware influence - real or imagined? - 06-24-2009 23:41:51

Originally Posted By: Mel Hill
You will buy my glasses!

He knew where you were every time you were in the audience (as opposed to behind the curtains). At times, I thought he was looking for you.
A great pic, Mel.
Posted by: BEB

All purpose wine glass... - 06-24-2009 23:53:57

I think that is what Claus (Gorg's father)came up with, didn't he? Or is that the tasting glass designed by Gorg? They're so many! I'm getting so confused. crazy
Posted by: BEB

Problem solved, really, I mean it! - 06-25-2009 09:56:07

How on earth did we miss this?!
Looking through the LATimes site, I came across this. Too bad I didn't discover this for father's day.
Quote:
Half the rim slopes inwards (trapping and concentrating the aroma), while the other half opens outwards (liberating fragrance and facilitating oxygenation). Using the different tasting zones offered by the glass, one has the impression that one can influence the result of the tasting process, just as the winemaker's work affects the wine during its production.

A bargain, I'm sure, at only $97. More info can be found here. Is that the sound of crystal smashing I hear in the background?
Posted by: Roland Dumas

Re: Problem solved, really, I mean it! - 06-25-2009 10:56:51

Brilliant! Now we're getting somewhere. Mr. Riedel shouldn't have a monopoly on silliness.
Posted by: cwatkins

Re: Not sure you need the Count, but - 06-26-2009 17:22:59

Greetings all, and apologies for being out of the loop for a bit there; I was away on a little vacation ... Anyhow, I thought I'd chime in on this one briefly, as this is a question we field with startling regularity in the tasting room; for whatever reason, this topic seems to be of great interest to people. Anyhow, my/our stance is definitely in favor of the notion that glassware shape/size has an effect on one's ability to fully appreciate what a wine has on offer, and we generally present two key reasons for this: 1) Controlled Aeration. In the same way that a decanter (theoretically!) affords a wine a controlled environment to interact with oxygen, and develop accordingly as far as "opening up", I believe a wine glass bowl does the same thing (on an admittedly smaller scale), and that different shapes/sizes achieve this in varying ways, with different environments being theoretically more or less suited to the requirements imposed by any given wine. 2) Deployment of wine across the palate. Assuming that different areas of our mouths/palates do indeed experience flavor/taste differently (salty, sweet, bitter, sour, umami, etc.) then in theory, it should make sense that the order in which these different areas experience a wine will have an effect on our perception of the wine itself. As a weird example, if you eat a piece of peanut butter toast peanut-butter-side up, you'll experience its flavor very differently than if you bit into it in the rather more unorthodox fashion of peanut-butter-side down. In the same way, if you drink a cab from a champagne flute ( and by the way, I think I loathe champagne flutes, vastly preferring the Coupe Glass instead, which is another story), all the wine goes straight to the middle of your tongue first, before it gets swirled around (assuming it does!), as opposed to drinking it from a big huge goblet, which will send the wine spilling into your cheeks, across the sides of your tongue, and between your lips and teeth, all at once, thereby in theory giving you a very different picture of the wine.

And that's my two cents, I do believe ...
Posted by: Eric_Anderson

Re: Not sure you need the Count, but - 06-27-2009 15:58:48

Originally Posted By: cwatkins
...if you drink a cab from a champagne flute ( and by the way, I think I loathe champagne flutes, vastly preferring the Coupe Glass instead, which is another story)....

Definitely - multiple cellarmasters from Champagne are on record as preferring Bordeaux glasses for their Champagne.
Posted by: Eric_Anderson

Re: Not sure you need the Count, but - 06-27-2009 16:05:24

It's fascinating to sift through all the logical, physical, and scientific evidence on this stuff - both pro and con. For me, the whole thing boiled down to anecdotal evidence - until I actually tried it! Each time there has been no question in my mind that the effects were fairly obvious - the wine was different out of different glasses. Interestingly, despite this knowledge, I continue to sip from the smaller INAO type glasses, like those provided from HdR about 5 yrs ago. I guess while you CAN teach an old dog new tricks, they're just as likely to slip back into their old ways! laugh