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#352582 - 06-09-2009 20:21:36 Jackass zin [Re: Eric_Anderson]
Bryan Gros Offline
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Registered: 03-28-2001 08:00:00
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You know, I buy little zinfandel anymore as well, the occasional bottle of Ridge or other dry creek producer.

But the other day I opened a 04 Martinelli Jackass that was in the cellar. It was (as expected) the big, ripe, (overripe?), jammy style that I don't really appreciate anymore.

But you know, I really enjoyed it for what it was. I'm not tempted to buy any more, but I kind of surprised myself by enjoying it and I'm glad I got a few other bottles of similar styles to pull out when the mood strikes.

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#352588 - 06-09-2009 21:33:51 Re: Jackass zin [Re: Bryan Gros]
Eric_Anderson Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bryan Gros
You know, I buy little zinfandel anymore as well, the occasional bottle of Ridge or other dry creek producer.

But the other day I opened a 04 Martinelli Jackass that was in the cellar. It was (as expected) the big, ripe, (overripe?), jammy style that I don't really appreciate anymore.

But you know, I really enjoyed it for what it was. I'm not tempted to buy any more, but I kind of surprised myself by enjoying it and I'm glad I got a few other bottles of similar styles to pull out when the mood strikes.

Truer words were never spoken. As Tomasso once said: "It is what it is. For what it is, it's a good example of what it is." crazy
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Marge: You were drunk!
Homer: And how.

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#352591 - 06-10-2009 00:39:16 Re: Jackass zin [Re: Eric_Anderson]
John Tomasso Offline

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Originally Posted By: Eric_Anderson
As Tomasso once said: "It is what it is. For what it is, it's a good example of what it is." crazy


Well, isn't it? cool
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Don't overcook it. You overcook it, it's no good. It defeats its own purpose.
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#352593 - 06-10-2009 01:01:45 Re: Moderate Mover [Re: CMH]
BEB Online   content
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Originally Posted By: CMH
Anyone tried Elyse's Zin/Primitivo blend "Couzins"? Pretty tasty.

Can anyone explain, in non-DNA speak, what the difference is between Zin and Primitivo? Aren't they related so closely that the Italians lobbied to have their wines labeled as Zins? Just what is the difference ... and does that difference matter outside the lab?
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#352599 - 06-10-2009 02:31:26 Re: Moderate Mover [Re: BEB]
Sean_Devaney Online   content
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I'll give it a shot. My understanding is that Pimativo is a clone of Zinfandel. I understand that Primativo has much looser clusters that promotes more even ripening and dries out better if hit by rain around harvest. I heard a story that Joe Swan in the 70's sometime bought some Primativo and couldn't tell it apart from Zin so he just blended them together. If board member Carol Merideth see's this thread I'm sure she can give us the real answer.

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#352601 - 06-10-2009 02:33:58 Re: Jackass zin [Re: John Tomasso]
Sean_Devaney Online   content
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Registered: 09-10-2005 19:46:35
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Originally Posted By: John Tomasso
Originally Posted By: Eric_Anderson
As Tomasso once said: "It is what it is. For what it is, it's a good example of what it is." crazy


Well, isn't it? cool


John you should trademark that grin so when I use that line you can get the credit whistle

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#352605 - 06-10-2009 03:15:37 Re: Jackass zin [Re: Sean_Devaney]
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When John came up with his signature line, Eric threatened to put it into his Grape-Nutz write up. JT didn't miss a beat, "Good thing nobody reads that site!"

-Al
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#352607 - 06-10-2009 03:25:35 Re: Jackass zin [Re: ksyrah]
Eric_Anderson Offline
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Which is why he's only 'Almost Famous' to this day. wink
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Marge: You were drunk!
Homer: And how.

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#352611 - 06-10-2009 03:34:43 Re: Moderate Mover [Re: Sean_Devaney]
Ken Zinns Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sean_Devaney
My understanding is that Primativo is a clone of Zinfandel.

That's what I've heard too. This is where we need Carole Meredith! smile

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#352613 - 06-10-2009 03:46:47 Garr once wrote... [Re: Ken Zinns]
BEB Online   content
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... the following as part of his 30 second wine advisor in 2004:

Quote:
IMMIGRANT PRIMITIVO by Robin Garr (30 second wine advisor)
.... As we've been studying in this month's Wine Tasting 101, after many years of discussion about the history and heritage of Zinfandel, that all-American grape that turned up mysteriously in the New
World with no clear family tree in the Old, scientists have pretty much nailed it down with DNA studies: Zinfandel is the direct descendant of the rare Croatian grape Crljenak Kastelanski; and the
Primitivo of Puglia in Southern Italy is not just its brother but the very same grape.

So far, so good. Until I got an E-mail note from Erich Russell, owner and wine maker at Rabbit Ridge, who's selling a lot of Primitivo grown, produced and bottled on his Paso Robles property
in ... California.

"Enjoyed your coments (sic) on Zinfandel vs. Primitivo," he wrote. "We were also very interested in the two varieties. In fact in my first new planting on the westside of Paso Robles in 1997 I planted 20 acres of Zinfandel and 20 acres of Primitivo side by side. My original intention was to blend the two together for Rabbit Ridge Paso Robles Zinfandel.

But regulatory authories (sic) in the U.S. Treasury Department wouldn't allow that, he said. "[They] could not decide if they are the same grape - even with the DNA evidence. So when it became time to bottle the first wines we could not blend the two together. We bottled both a Primitivo and a Zinfandel. Since this time Primitivo has become Rabbit Ridge's No. 1 selling wine from Paso Robles."

Despite their identical DNA, he said, the grapes show consistent clonal differences: "In the vineyard the Primitivo clusters are much smaller than Zinfandel, the Primitivo always ripens earlier,
the Primitivo gets much riper without the shriveling of berries that Zinfandel gets, and Primitivo always throws a much larger second crop than Zinfandel.

"In the finished wine, Primitivo has an even greater jammy and berry character than Zinfandel, has so much fruit that it stands up better to higher alcohol levels, does not have the raisin character
that you sometimes get with high-alcohol zinfandel. I have referred to the difference between the two wines of Rabbit Ridge's as the Primitivo tastes like the Zinfandel on steroids." ...


but I seem to recall Carole coming on here in a thread just a few years ago and dispelling part of that.
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#352626 - 06-10-2009 15:40:42 differences [Re: BEB]
Eric_Anderson Offline
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Rockledge Vnyds in Napa used to have both Zin and Primativo, but, unfortunately yanked them to plant additional Cabernet. Smart business decision, but I still remember trying these two side-by-side. To me, the Primativo was head and shoulders the better wine - smoother and chewier, yet more tannic as well.
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Homer: Every time I learn something new, some of the old gets pushed out of my brain. Remember that time I took the wine making course and forgot how to drive?
Marge: You were drunk!
Homer: And how.

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#352642 - 06-11-2009 02:08:13 Re: differences [Re: Eric_Anderson]
Ken Zinns Offline
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De La Montanya winery makes both Zinfandel and Primitivo. When I've tasted both at the winery, I preferred the Primitivo.

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#352661 - 06-11-2009 13:26:19 Not Carole...But [Re: Ken Zinns]
TomHill Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Ken Zinns

That's what I've heard too. This is where we need Carole Meredith! smile


Not Carole...I only play her on TV in Dancing With The Stars. Bottom line is that Churlynack/Zinfandel/Primitivo are identical varieties according to DNA. DNA cannot (or has not yet) distinguish between clones. The characteristics of Primitivo in the vnyd are decidely different from Zinfandel. The two times I've observed them in the same vnyd, they sure looked different to me. When I've tasted Primitivo and Zin made by the same winemaker (George Hendry), they tasted different, but not as dramatically different as any Calif Zin and Apulian Primitivo. The winemakers claim that Primitivo is much easier to work with (less second crop, less variation in sugar level within a bunch, looser clusters & less tendancy to rot, etc).
As far as what you can put on the label, the Feds would be the last ones I'd trust to have a clue about Primitivo vs. Zin.
To complicate matters (well...actually...just throwing out this factoid to flaunt my sense of history), HopKilnWnry used to make an old-vine Zin back in the late '70's that they labeled Primitivo and actually even trademarked the Primitivo name, though I think that was eventually overturned.
But what would I know...I've only followed Zin from the very start when Agoston & I planted some up in Sonoma!!!
Tom

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#352664 - 06-11-2009 13:41:51 Re: Not Carole...But [Re: TomHill]
John Tomasso Offline

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Originally Posted By: TomHill
DNA cannot (or has not yet) distinguish between clones.


Tom, I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that zin:primitivo as pinot noir 777: pinot noir 115 (for example)?
That they are basically the same thing, they just act differently because of clonal difference?
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Don't overcook it. You overcook it, it's no good. It defeats its own purpose.
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#352669 - 06-11-2009 13:45:05 Re: Not Carole...But [Re: John Tomasso]
Eric_Anderson Offline
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Hang on, we've summoned a REAL expert. Waiting....
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Homer: Every time I learn something new, some of the old gets pushed out of my brain. Remember that time I took the wine making course and forgot how to drive?
Marge: You were drunk!
Homer: And how.

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#352675 - 06-11-2009 14:27:29 Yup... [Re: John Tomasso]
TomHill Online   content
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Originally Posted By: John Tomasso

Tom, I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that zin:primitivo as pinot noir 777: pinot noir 115 (for example)?
That they are basically the same thing, they just act differently because of clonal difference?


Yup....I'm saying that if you do the DNA on Clone 777 and 115, they'll both identify as PinotNoir. That's all.
I don't know if DNA typing can distinguish between clones or not. I know that when they're doing DNA typing, they look at certain "markers", which I gather are certain blobs on a strip chart record or some such, and these "markers" are unique to Pinot. Maybe if you look at a whole bunch more "markers" you can get down to the clonal level. I don't know...clueless.
This is waaaay outside my area of expertise. I ain't a rocket scientist, you know. But...what the hey.. I am a LosAlamos guy...so I can make something up!!! :-)
Let's wait till we hear from Carole.
Tom

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#352717 - 06-11-2009 23:43:49 Re: Moderate Mover [Re: Ken Zinns]
Carole Meredith Offline
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Registered: 02-20-2004 03:10:26
Posts: 50
Loc: Mount Veeder, Napa, California
Thanks to Eric for alerting me to this thread. (And giving me an excuse to take a break from shoot thinning and lateral pulling. Every time I close my eyes, I see lateral shoots!)

Zinfandel and Primitivo and Crljenak kastelanski (the Croatian name) are 3 names for a single variety, just like Shiraz and Syrah. So, yes, the differences among them are clonal differences. (Yes, JT, akin to the differences between Pinot noir 777 and Pinot noir 115)

The reason that the TTB still lists Zin and Primitivo as separate varieties is because when that the two names were proposed as synonyms several years ago, certain large Zin producers in California objected, presumably because they wanted to prevent Italian producers from labeling their wine as Zinfandel and competing with California producers. So the proposal was never acted on and then it was quietly withdrawn last year. Nevertheless, plenty of Italian wine labeled as Zinfandel is on the market. The EU has, since 1998, allowed the names Zinfandel and Primitivo to be used interchangeably, so there's lots of Italian Zinfandel on supermarket shelves in the UK. And in the US, it is TTB policy to approve labels on imported wine if they conform to the labeling regulations in their country of origin, hence Italian Zinfandel can also be found on store shelves here.

Carole
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Carole Meredith
Lagier Meredith Vineyard

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#352719 - 06-12-2009 00:07:36 Re: Moderate Mover [Re: Carole Meredith]
Ken Zinns Offline
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Thanks for the clarification, Carole!

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#352722 - 06-12-2009 00:51:18 Oh Carole! [Re: Eric_Anderson]
John Tomasso Offline

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If we had one of those "bowing to greatness" emoticons, I would be using it now.
Thanks for the explanation.
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#352723 - 06-12-2009 00:58:09 Re: Moderate Mover [Re: Carole Meredith]
Eric_Anderson Offline
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"moderate mover? Well, sure, but is it "alive and well, or on lifesupport?" wink
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Marge: You were drunk!
Homer: And how.

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#352747 - 06-12-2009 13:02:40 FollowUp Question Carole... [Re: Eric_Anderson]
TomHill Online   content
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Thanks for clarifying things, Carole. Not sure why you have more street cred here on WCWN then some LosAlamos guy who occasionally makes up stuff!!
So what's the convention on labeling in the USofA of Zinfandel/Primitivo?? My impression is that growers will order from nurseries Primitivo that was imported from Italy some 20-30 yrs ago and that's what they label as Primitivo. Or do some folks use Zinfandel and Primitivo interchangeably?
And when is your Chester'sAnvil going to be released?
Tom

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#352756 - 06-12-2009 15:40:46 Re: FollowUp Question Carole... [Re: TomHill]
Carole Meredith Offline
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Tom, when the discussion turns to the computational thermonuclear aspects of wine, I'll defer to your greater expertise.

The labeling of Zin/Prim in the US is a little squishy. The TTB requires that a winery maintain a paper trail from purchase of grapes to release of bottled wine. If the winery purchases grapes that the grower calls Primitivo, then the winery can label the wine Primitivo but not Zin. But if the grower sells the grapes as Zinfandel, the winery can call the wine Zinfandel but not Primitivo. The TTB sometimes checks the grape purchase records. (In 1993, a well-known California wine producer was convicted of fraud for misrepresenting a less expensive variety as Zinfandel.)

If a grower bought the vines or budwood from a nursery as Primitivo, then he/she should technically represent the grapes as Primitivo. But I don't think the TTB checks the paper trail between nursery and grower. And many vineyards are planted with budwood from other vineyards, not from nurseries. And there's no way with present technology to conclusively distinguish between Primitivo and Zinfandel vines. (But a few clones of other varieties can be distinguished. It's only a matter of time. And money of course.)

We'll bottle the Chester's Anvil next month and release it in the fall. All 50 cases of it!

Carole
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#352759 - 06-12-2009 16:02:46 Thanks Carole.. [Re: Carole Meredith]
TomHill Online   content
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That makes it clear. So it's no different than labeling the wine Clon777 or Clone123...the Feds aren't concerned with that info.
As for Primitivo/Zin, they just rely on the integrity of the grower I gather.
At this point, there's no (obvious) marketing advantage for Primitivo vs Zin, one over the other. So it's not an issue of any winemaker using them interchangeably.
Tom

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#352763 - 06-12-2009 17:08:01 Re: Moderate Mover [Re: Marc Hanes]
John Ammons Offline
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Registered: 03-12-2004 22:41:46
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Loc: Mill Valley, CA
Originally Posted By: Marc Hanes
The sole exception may be that, for reasons I can't even name, I remain on the Turley mailing list and buy six bottles in the spring, six in the fall, about 1/3 of my total allocation (don't share, don't flip, don't ask).
Marc, I finally weened myself completely from the Turley list last year. This after a couple years of ordering as you've been. Trust me, it is liberating experience.

I buy about two bottles a mailer from a friend on the Carlisle list, but that's pretty much it.

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#352802 - 06-13-2009 15:53:34 Re: Thanks Carole.. [Re: TomHill]
BEB Online   content
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Originally Posted By: TomHill
At this point, there's no (obvious) marketing advantage for Primitivo vs Zin, one over the other. So it's not an issue of any winemaker using them interchangeably.

Sure there's an advantage of one over the other. "Zinfandel" is much more recognized than "Primitivo" in the casual market. I would argue that a grower with Primitivo has a marketing disadvantage using the grape's name on the label instead of using Zinfandel. If I understand what Carole is saying, the TTB still prohibits Primo from being sold as Zin. I gather this has to do with the lobbying strength of those who have invested money over the years in the name "Zinfandel"
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