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#352892 - 06-15-2009 15:36:03 Re: Thanks Carole.. [Re: BEB]
Eric_Anderson Offline
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Agreed. Probably have to have a geek score of 91 to know about Primativo. Here, the name is probably going to put most buyers in the camp of "hmmm, probably a lot like Chianti."
_________________________
Homer: Every time I learn something new, some of the old gets pushed out of my brain. Remember that time I took the wine making course and forgot how to drive?
Marge: You were drunk!
Homer: And how.

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#352905 - 06-15-2009 19:04:48 Re: Thanks Carole.. [Re: Eric_Anderson]
cwatkins Offline
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Registered: 05-05-2009 21:03:20
Posts: 26
Loc: Cupertino, CA
On the other hand, I think it's at least reasonable to suggest that "conventional wisdom" as regards California zinfandel as a whole seems to have moved in a somewhat disparaging direction; put another way, I know we spend alot of time in the tasting room trying to explain to people that zinfandel is more than just a BBQ wine (to reference a previous comment), that it's a varietal that can show great complexity, that has great potential for long-term development, and is a far more flexible varietal in terms of how it responds to different micro-climates than normally thought of. It surprises me how hard we often have to push for people to believe this; of course I think at RIDGE we're fortunate enough to have a great portfolio of zins to support this stance, but in the end, there does some to be some resistance to the idea of "long-term" zin out there, sometimes I think people just don't want to believe; they WANT to drink zins young, fruity, and boozy, and that's it. Put does that mean it's on "life support?" Absolutely not! I think as the endless proliferation of cooking shows on TV indicates, the "American Palate" (yes, I'm certainly generalizing!) is steadily moving towards understanding and appreciating pairing food and wine, and I think that means then that they're starting to re-calibrate towards acidity and spice, as opposed to fruit and alcohol. Which should mean an increased appreciation for more subtle, elegant, and complex zins, of which there are certainly a number of out there ...

Now, as to calling it Primitivo instead, were that allowed; sure, there could be a marketing challenge courtesy of lack of famailiarity, but on the other hand, you wouldn't have to fight the same degree of reputational baggage!

Anyhow, thanks to all for all the great insights in this thread, it's fascinating!

Regards,

Christopher Watkins
Tasting Room Manager
RIDGE Vineayards/Monte Bello


Edited by cwatkins (06-15-2009 20:18:18)
_________________________
Christopher Watkins
Manager, Retail Sales & Hospitality
RIDGE Vineyards/Monte Bello
Host: "4488: A Ridge Blog"

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#352908 - 06-15-2009 20:36:50 Re: Thanks Chris [Re: cwatkins]
BEB Online   content
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Loc: Somewhere in the Great Valley ...
Originally Posted By: cwatkins
... I think it's at least reasonable to suggest that "conventional wisdom" as regards California zinfandel as a whole seems to have moved in a somewhat disparaging direction; ...

Now, [if labeling allowed Zin to be sold as "Primitivo"] ; sure, there could be a marketing challenge courtesy of lack of famailiarity, but on the other hand, you wouldn't have to fight the same degree of reputational baggage!


Wow! Thanks for the insight Chris. The idea of Zin moving in a disparaging direction is hard for me to get my head around. But if you want to fight "reputational baggage" try selling a Virginia made Primitivo!

I'm curious also as to food pairings. I agree Zin is a versatile food wine. But what foods would you pair with Zin. Does it make a difference if the Zin is an older vintage or a younger vintage. Pulled Pork is, for me, every bit as serious a food as beef tenderloin. I slow smoke a dry rubbed butt and then pull it, not chop it. I love Zin with it. I also love Zin with grilled steak.
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"I've wrestled with reality for 35 years and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd

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#352912 - 06-15-2009 21:16:04 Re: Thanks Chris [Re: BEB]
cwatkins Offline
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Registered: 05-05-2009 21:03:20
Posts: 26
Loc: Cupertino, CA
Hiya BEB! And yeah, wow, a Virginia primitivo; that certainly poses some marketing challenges indeed ...

And on another note, I certainly never meant to suggest that bbq, or anything else of the sort, is somehow not serious food; to the contrary, in fact, i think ALL food is serious food! (For example, I rather think discussions about pie and coffee for breakfast rank as some of the most important culinary conversations one can have!) What I meant to suggest was there seems to be a theme out there that zin somehow goes with the "fun" foods, the "down home" foods, the "picnic" foods, etc., but you don't see it too often discussed in the context of pairing with dishes and styles that fall outside of these "disclaimed" arenas ...

As to what foods would I pair with zin, wow! That's a BIG question ... so many zins, so much food ... I'll have to think on that a bit. But I'll give you what I think is a good example from my own recent personal history ... I recently had the great pleasure of hosting a very well-known chef from Japan here in the Monte Bello tasting room (in the context of a mid-week "trade" visit), and he told me that our Geyserville is very popular with chefs in Japan because it's one of a seemingly very few Californian reds that pair well with Japanese cuisine! I thought this was fascinating, and it certainly flies in the face of what I would think of as "conventional wisdom" as regards pairing with Asian cuisines in general, and Japanese cuisine in particular. Certainly sake is an obvious pairing, or a dry beer (Asahi, Sapporo, etc.), and I actually once had a wine rep totally win me over by pairing a very dry, nutty sherry with sushi, but red wine? You just don't hear that very often for Japanese cooking ... But his contention (and I am paraphrasing here) was that the second and third-tier layers of spice and hearbality, combined with a leaner body weight and more presence from the acidity, made it a rather ideal companion!

Anyhow, I'll ponder on this, and try and come up with more soon!
_________________________
Christopher Watkins
Manager, Retail Sales & Hospitality
RIDGE Vineyards/Monte Bello
Host: "4488: A Ridge Blog"

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#352914 - 06-15-2009 23:16:53 Re: Thanks Carole.. [Re: cwatkins]
Alan Rath Offline
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Loc: Fremont, Ca
Originally Posted By: cwatkins
I think people just don't want to believe; they WANT to drink zins young, fruity, and boozy, and that's it.
They probably just haven't had the right experience, for example:

Here or Here

Thanks for contributing!
Regards,
Alan
_________________________
It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black

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#352936 - 06-16-2009 17:15:49 Don't dis my zin [Re: Eric_Anderson]
Roland Dumas Offline
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Registered: 11-19-2003 08:00:00
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Loc: Napa, CA
Is zin on life support? That presumes that zin is one thing. The grape is so versatile that it can be used to make kool-aid wine, fruit bombs, or complex rich elegant wines that compare favorably with the great meritages of the world.

Zin is an entry level wine – a gateway red, if you will. For the younger palate, it can be very accessible because it’s fruit-forward, jammy, and can be made to pop and pour and be simple and delicious. Young people going tasting room hopping can “get” the zin while the cab is too hard and the pinot too elusive for the novice palate.

It’s also a wine that experienced drinkers can discover. Rather than put down a good cab for 10-20 years and wait for it to mature, there’s the class of zin that gives the complexity, richness, and age notes with less waiting and a lot less money. Why spend $100 and have to wait a decade when you can spend $30 and wait a couple years?

To parody the Apple iPhone commercial’s “there’s an app for that”, I’d maintain that for almost any palate or occasion, there’s a zin for that. They’re that varied.

Back to the original question: is zin alive or on life support? Which zin are you talking about?

My own cellar, such as it is, is about 50% zin. Some are on the pop-n-pour rack, others in the “don’t touch until 2012” rack, etc. For spontaneous creative shared meals, it’s the go-to wine. Late night supper with friends over – what could better pair than a 94 Lytton Springs?

Net net: Don’t dis my zin.

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#352942 - 06-16-2009 18:25:56 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: Roland Dumas]
Eric_Anderson Offline
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Originally Posted By: Roland Dumas
Is zin on life support? That presumes that zin is one thing. The grape is so versatile that it can be used to make kool-aid wine, fruit bombs, or complex rich elegant wines that compare favorably with the great meritages of the world.

Yes, but it's also true that most reds and more than a few whites are capable of being many things - stylistically speaking. But, while we agree there are different kinds of Zin, for all practical purposes, Zin is just Zin ...to a lot of people.

Originally Posted By: Roland Dumas
Zin is an entry level wine – a gateway red, if you will. For the younger palate, it can be very accessible because it’s fruit-forward, jammy, and can be made to pop and pour and be simple and delicious. Young people going tasting room hopping can “get” the zin while the cab is too hard and the pinot too elusive for the novice palate.

...and, I think this is probably the major downside for Zin. It's considered by many to be exactly that - an entry-level wine, a passing phase for most wine-lovers. So, how does Zin reconcile that? How does Zin stay en vogue with people who have been drinking wine for awhile, so they don't just treat it as a passing fancy?

Originally Posted By: Roland Dumas
It’s also a wine that experienced drinkers can discover. Rather than put down a good cab for 10-20 years and wait for it to mature, there’s the class of zin that gives the complexity, richness, and age notes with less waiting and a lot less money. Why spend $100 and have to wait a decade when you can spend $30 and wait a couple years?

I'm not sure there's any more inducement to try a $30 Zin with a couple of years of bottle age, over a $30 Bordeaux with the same bottle age. For me, they'd both be approachable, and each should have at least some complexities built up.

Originally Posted By: Roland Dumas
My own cellar, such as it is, is about 50% zin. Some are on the pop-n-pour rack, others in the “don’t touch until 2012” rack, etc. For spontaneous creative shared meals, it’s the go-to wine. Late night supper with friends over – what could better pair than a 94 Lytton Springs?

I'm guessing you'd be the exception to the rule here, Roland. But, cheers to you for drinking what you like - which is what we all should do.

Originally Posted By: Roland Dumas
Net net: Don’t dis my zin.

I'm just sayin'. wink
_________________________
Homer: Every time I learn something new, some of the old gets pushed out of my brain. Remember that time I took the wine making course and forgot how to drive?
Marge: You were drunk!
Homer: And how.

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#352943 - 06-16-2009 18:56:04 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: Eric_Anderson]
Roland Dumas Offline
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Registered: 11-19-2003 08:00:00
Posts: 989
Loc: Napa, CA
Originally Posted By: Eric_Anderson
Zin is just Zin ...to a lot of people.


...and, I think this is probably the major downside for Zin. It's considered by many to be exactly that - an entry-level wine,


This reminds me of the rhetorical device of Somesay. Somesay the sky is falling, what say you?

For people who enjoy entry level wines and don't care to get more into the experience, zin can serve the need just nicely.

What I'm saying is that for those who develop appreciation for variety and complexity, there's a zin for that, and they can discover it all over again. Many do, as indicated by the success of the Rs.

To the original question, zin is not on life support. I don't know what the sales figures are. The retailers among us would know that. I'm sure all the >$20 wines are feeling a slowdown of late, and the really cheap South American wines are likely displacing sales of mid-range California wines. I'm not sure there is any rationale to pick on zin as the loser in this melee.

What intrigues me is the Primitivo discussion. If it's a sister clone of zin, and has more even ripening characteristics, the Primitivo block right next to the zin block might just make a better wine, all other factors held constant. I'd sure be interested in sampling that experiment, especially if the producer were one of the Rs.

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#352956 - 06-16-2009 21:14:37 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: Roland Dumas]
Eric_Anderson Offline
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Originally Posted By: Roland Dumas
...I'm not sure there is any rationale to pick on zin as the loser in this melee.

I think "pick on Zin as the loser" is harsher than I'd put it, but sure, I singled Zin out for discussion here. I think I could have just as easily inserted Merlot in its place, and we'd have had just as lively a conversation. No?
_________________________
Homer: Every time I learn something new, some of the old gets pushed out of my brain. Remember that time I took the wine making course and forgot how to drive?
Marge: You were drunk!
Homer: And how.

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#352960 - 06-16-2009 21:26:02 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: Eric_Anderson]
Roland Dumas Offline
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Registered: 11-19-2003 08:00:00
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Loc: Napa, CA
Originally Posted By: Eric_Anderson

I think "pick on Zin as the loser" is harsher than I'd put it, but sure, I singled Zin out for discussion here. I think I could have just as easily inserted Merlot in its place, and we'd have had just as lively a conversation. No?


Well, now, we CAN agree to pick on merlot. grin

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#352963 - 06-16-2009 21:35:58 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: Roland Dumas]
Eric_Anderson Offline
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Originally Posted By: Roland Dumas
Originally Posted By: Eric_Anderson

I think "pick on Zin as the loser" is harsher than I'd put it, but sure, I singled Zin out for discussion here. I think I could have just as easily inserted Merlot in its place, and we'd have had just as lively a conversation. No?


Well, now, we CAN agree to pick on merlot. grin

No way! Merlot is misunderstood...that's all. wink
_________________________
Homer: Every time I learn something new, some of the old gets pushed out of my brain. Remember that time I took the wine making course and forgot how to drive?
Marge: You were drunk!
Homer: And how.

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#353039 - 06-18-2009 04:18:12 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: Roland Dumas]
BTraub Offline
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Registered: 02-15-2004 19:19:59
Posts: 216
Loc: Long Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: Roland Dumas
The grape is so versatile that it can be used to make kool-aid wine, fruit bombs, or complex rich elegant wines that compare favorably with the great meritages of the world.

To parody the Apple iPhone commercial’s “there’s an app for that”, I’d maintain that for almost any palate or occasion, there’s a zin for that. They’re that varied.

Back to the original question: is zin alive or on life support? Which zin are you talking about?

[/b]


Good points, but zin's versatility is also one of the challenges from a marketing standpoint. Zin has one of the widest range of styles of any of the major red varietals, so from a retailers standpoint, it's important to find out what your customer is looking for so you can direct him/her to a wine that fits their expectations. Otherwise the customer is likely to be pretty gun shy about zin--people want to know what they're going to get.

In our store zin does quite well, mainly under $20, but pretty good in the $20 to $30 range, too. Zins over $30 are mostly just sitting right now. Good ones under $15 fly. Although our store tends to focus on less ripe/lower alcohol "food friendly" wines as this fits most of our customers' preferences, it's the more jammy Paso Robles zins that are among our biggest sellers--names like Opolo, Dover Canyon, Tobin James, and Adelaida. On the other end of the stylistic spectrum, I can't give Ridge away.

We still have the occasional customer who is surprised that zinfandel is a red wine.
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#353041 - 06-18-2009 05:24:43 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: BTraub]
Roland Dumas Offline
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Registered: 11-19-2003 08:00:00
Posts: 989
Loc: Napa, CA
Originally Posted By: BTraub
[On the other end of the stylistic spectrum, I can't give Ridge away.


will be right over ... wink

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#353044 - 06-18-2009 11:14:06 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: BTraub]
BEB Online   content
True Southern Exposure
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Registered: 01-02-2001 08:00:00
Posts: 5444
Loc: Somewhere in the Great Valley ...
Originally Posted By: BTraub
... our store tends to focus on less ripe/lower alcohol "food friendly" wines as this fits most of our customers' preferences, it's the more jammy Paso Robles zins that are among our biggest sellers- ... On the other end of the stylistic spectrum, I can't give Ridge away.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but this looks like a disconnect to me. I would think the Ridge Zins are some of the most food friendly of the Zins you've listed (to the admittedly limited extent I've had the other Zins). For me, jammy wines are not the more food friendly wines, but they can be very fun wines.
_________________________
BEB

"I've wrestled with reality for 35 years and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd

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#353051 - 06-18-2009 15:25:15 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: BEB]
BTraub Offline
Member

Registered: 02-15-2004 19:19:59
Posts: 216
Loc: Long Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: BEB
Originally Posted By: BTraub
... our store tends to focus on less ripe/lower alcohol "food friendly" wines as this fits most of our customers' preferences, it's the more jammy Paso Robles zins that are among our biggest sellers- ... On the other end of the stylistic spectrum, I can't give Ridge away.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but this looks like a disconnect to me. I would think the Ridge Zins are some of the most food friendly of the Zins you've listed (to the admittedly limited extent I've had the other Zins). For me, jammy wines are not the more food friendly wines, but they can be very fun wines.


Completely agree, that was my point, there's an inconsistency here, and I can't really explain it. Perhaps its simply that many of our customers have visited the Paso area, and enjoyed their experiences there, so continue to buy the wines. Or perhaps zin drinkers are just different from our other customers. But there it is.

Perhaps people view zins as a guilty pleasure. Kind of like a health-food nut sneaking a burger once in a while, people buy zins when they want a big slutty wine, even if they normally drink stuff like Beaujolais and Muscadet.
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#353053 - 06-18-2009 15:35:20 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: BTraub]
Eric_Anderson Offline
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Registered: 12-13-2000 08:00:00
Posts: 2441
Loc: Right here
Originally Posted By: BTraub
Originally Posted By: BEB
Originally Posted By: BTraub
... our store tends to focus on less ripe/lower alcohol "food friendly" wines as this fits most of our customers' preferences, it's the more jammy Paso Robles zins that are among our biggest sellers- ... On the other end of the stylistic spectrum, I can't give Ridge away.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but this looks like a disconnect to me. I would think the Ridge Zins are some of the most food friendly of the Zins you've listed (to the admittedly limited extent I've had the other Zins). For me, jammy wines are not the more food friendly wines, but they can be very fun wines.


Completely agree, that was my point, there's an inconsistency here, and I can't really explain it. Perhaps its simply that many of our customers have visited the Paso area, and enjoyed their experiences there, so continue to buy the wines. Or perhaps zin drinkers are just different from our other customers. But there it is.

Perhaps people view zins as a guilty pleasure. Kind of like a health-food nut sneaking a burger once in a while, people buy zins when they want a big slutty wine, even if they normally drink stuff like Beaujolais and Muscadet.

Agree...and, we're back to square one. It's difficult for most established, cognizant or veteran wine consumers to look at the grape as anything but a dalliance - a return to fun (read, not serious) wines.
_________________________
Homer: Every time I learn something new, some of the old gets pushed out of my brain. Remember that time I took the wine making course and forgot how to drive?
Marge: You were drunk!
Homer: And how.

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#353055 - 06-18-2009 15:49:25 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: BEB]
blil Offline
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Registered: 12-13-2000 08:00:00
Posts: 6251
Loc: Paola, KS
Originally Posted By: BEB
Perhaps I'm missing something, but this looks like a disconnect to me. I would think the Ridge Zins are some of the most food friendly of the Zins you've listed (to the admittedly limited extent I've had the other Zins). For me, jammy wines are not the more food friendly wines, but they can be very fun wines.


Depends on what you're eating, imo. I love those rich, fruity Zins with BBQ, spicy foods, sausage, Tex-Mex-inspired foods and pretty much anything off the grill.

Ridge will always be around. And I still buy the occasional bottle. But I think it's becoming the Zinfandel equivalent of Jordan or Silver Oak Cabernet; valued by the "old guard," but perhaps not as fresh and exciting as many of the newer wineries (like the Paso wineries BTraub mentioned).
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#353057 - 06-18-2009 16:16:49 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: blil]
Eric_Anderson Offline
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Originally Posted By: blil
Originally Posted By: BEB
Perhaps I'm missing something, but this looks like a disconnect to me. I would think the Ridge Zins are some of the most food friendly of the Zins you've listed (to the admittedly limited extent I've had the other Zins). For me, jammy wines are not the more food friendly wines, but they can be very fun wines.


Depends on what you're eating, imo. I love those rich, fruity Zins with BBQ, spicy foods, sausage, Tex-Mex-inspired foods and pretty much anything off the grill.

Ridge will always be around. And I still buy the occasional bottle. But I think it's becoming the Zinfandel equivalent of Jordan or Silver Oak Cabernet; valued by the "old guard," but perhaps not as fresh and exciting as many of the newer wineries (like the Paso wineries BTraub mentioned).

yeah, I've always seen Zin in that light as well. But basically, Syrah became the new Zin - at least for me.
_________________________
Homer: Every time I learn something new, some of the old gets pushed out of my brain. Remember that time I took the wine making course and forgot how to drive?
Marge: You were drunk!
Homer: And how.

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#353069 - 06-18-2009 18:02:22 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: Eric_Anderson]
cwatkins Offline
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Registered: 05-05-2009 21:03:20
Posts: 26
Loc: Cupertino, CA
Greetings all!

So, this is kind of awkward, chiming in on Ridge and on zinfandel, given that I work for Ridge, but I think I have some info that's relevant. Some of the most recent comments seem to indicate a sense of Ridge as being "old news" (I believe the line was something like "valued by the old guard") or perhaps even passe, and/or not being of interest to newer generations of wine drinkers. I don't want to sound defensive, but I will say, in my experience in our tasting room, almost the opposite seems to be true. When I first started working here, I expected the majority of our visitors to be said "old guard"; die-hard long-time Ridge-o-philes; the hearty ones willing to brave the journey up the hill. And while of course we are certainly blessed to have the support of these loyalists, I've been stunned as to how many young wine drinkers come to visit, and how many actually aren't necessarily familiar with Ridge; rather, they've heard about us, and are interested. The same might be noted of our current staff; a great many of them are in their mid-twenties, and THRILLED to be here; to be at Ridge, and to be learning about wine. They carry notebooks with them on the job all day, scribbling down tasting notes, overheard descriptors, and other such oenophilic-musings. It's tremendous to witness, and it's invigorating and inspriring to be around them. So I have to say, with all due respect for the thread to date, my personal experience here in the Monte Bello Tasting Room is that there is alot of excitement about wine, and about zinfandel, that runs across generations and experience levels. I can see why one might think of Ridge as appealing only to an "old guard," but on a day-to-day basis, I see something very different here.

And as to the food pairing question, I heartily disagree that zin's flexibility is a liability, on the contrary, I think we're actually seeing an upgrade in interest about zinfandel, as people are discovering just what a fine pairing option it is. As noted in another comment, the juicier, fleshier, more fruit-driven zins are brilliant for spicy foods, wheras leaner, more herb and acid-driven zins are wonderful with indian and asian dishes. Sweeter zins are wonderful with heavily smoky, umami-laden dishes, and dry, higher tannin zins are great with italian cusine, to cite just a few generalized examples. I spend alot of time in the tasting room discussing culinary pairings with people, and zins come up an awful lot.

One last point, there is a great amount of zinfandel in California being grown on small, traditionally-tended, small family farms, and I think this local, small-scale, sustainable and ecologically conscious artisan approach is very much in step with the contemporary zeitgeist in our culture; one more angle on zin's current relevance.

Just my two cents ...
_________________________
Christopher Watkins
Manager, Retail Sales & Hospitality
RIDGE Vineyards/Monte Bello
Host: "4488: A Ridge Blog"

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#353071 - 06-18-2009 18:45:17 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: cwatkins]
MarcStubblefield Offline
Member

Registered: 07-14-2007 22:23:18
Posts: 497
Loc: San Diego, CA
Just a ha-penny digression, but I for one am glad that you're posting in this thread with a perpective from Ridge, and I've also been enjoying your posts elsewhere on WCWN as well as on the Ridge blog.

Glad to have you around, Chris!

(Now back to your regularly scheduled Zin debate)

Best,
_________________________
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--
You may become much less concerned about what other people think of you when you realize how seldom they do.

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#353072 - 06-18-2009 18:55:23 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: cwatkins]
Eric_Anderson Offline
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Christopher, thanks for your thoughts and participation on this thread.

First off, let me just say that I had no hidden agenda in starting this thread - well, other than to provoke conversation here. While I don't happen to buy any Zin right now, I'm not buying a lot of other varieties right now either.

Secondly, considering your job, you add the obvious dimension of being in the trenches, while the rest of us are just armchair generals. So, your participation is most appreciated.

Lastly, keep posting, man!
_________________________
Homer: Every time I learn something new, some of the old gets pushed out of my brain. Remember that time I took the wine making course and forgot how to drive?
Marge: You were drunk!
Homer: And how.

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#353075 - 06-18-2009 19:21:29 Re: Don't dis my zin [Re: Eric_Anderson]
cwatkins Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05-05-2009 21:03:20
Posts: 26
Loc: Cupertino, CA
Thanks everyone, for all the kind words! And Eric, no "hidden agenda" assumed, I think your intentions were quite clear, and may I say, effective! You certainly set off quite a conversation!

Anyhow, thank you all again for being so welcoming, I'm thrilled to be a part of these great threads ...
_________________________
Christopher Watkins
Manager, Retail Sales & Hospitality
RIDGE Vineyards/Monte Bello
Host: "4488: A Ridge Blog"

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#353394 - 06-23-2009 19:27:03 Re: Zin: is it alive and well, or on lifesupport? [Re: Eric_Anderson]
Jim Harris Offline
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Posts: 1068
Loc: San Pedro, California
I like in the summer when the grills get fired up more often.
I like them with real BBQ (with sauces and spices) not just grilled meats.

Cheers
_________________________
"Worrying is using your imagination to create something you don't want. "
Abraham

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