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#353929 - 07-08-2009 20:14:01 Re: Hybrid Grapes - Will they ever be accepted? [Re: Peter May]
BEB Offline
True Southern Exposure
Crazed Wino

Registered: 01-02-2001 08:00:00
Posts: 5420
Loc: Somewhere in the Great Valley ...
That's correct. And a Pinotage is a cross of 2 varieties, correct? Yes. The OCW uses a very loose/broad definition. One that makes Pinotage a hybrid.

I clearly opened the door for insight into the definition of a hybrid here. You've been given ample opportunity to explain the differences. Instead, you've been taking cheap swipes. If you want to play professorial "hide the ball" with pedantic follow up, you might try e-bob. It doesn't play well here.


"I've wrestled with reality for 35 years and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd

#353932 - 07-08-2009 21:24:01 Re: Hybrid Grapes - Will they ever be accepted? [Re: BEB]
Ken Zinns Offline

Registered: 12-15-2000 08:00:00
Posts: 3127
Loc: Oakland, CA
BEB, I don't really understand your most recent post. As far as I can see, Peter has been clear with his definitions (about as clear as could be in his latest post) and I haven't read anything from him that I'd put in the "cheap swipes" category.

Pinotage is not considered a hybrid by any definition I've ever run across, since it is not a cross of two different grape species, but a cross between two varieties of Vitis vinifera. What's the OCW definition you've referred to that is more broad?

Not that Wikipedia is always a reliable reference, but this entry seems pretty straightforward and is in keeping with the definitions I'm familiar with: List of grape varieties

So it sounds like your original question was in regard to man-made grape cultivars that are inter-species hybrids as well as those that are crosses of varieties within species (whether that's vinifera, lambrusca, whatever). You're right, few of the man-made hybrids or crosses get much respect, and based on ones I've tried, I've found very few that approach the same level of interest or quality of the better-known vinifera wine grapes.

#353934 - 07-08-2009 21:55:25 Re: Hybrid Grapes - Will they ever be accepted? [Re: Ken Zinns]
Eric_Anderson Offline

Registered: 12-13-2000 08:00:00
Posts: 2441
Loc: Right here
yes, but what about the Prius? I think it gets some respect.
Homer: Every time I learn something new, some of the old gets pushed out of my brain. Remember that time I took the wine making course and forgot how to drive?
Marge: You were drunk!
Homer: And how.

#353938 - 07-09-2009 00:14:37 Tone on Tails [Re: Eric_Anderson]
Marc Hanes Offline
Crazed Wino

Registered: 12-13-2000 08:00:00
Posts: 5639
Loc: Maplewood, NJ
I do think that definitions have maybe not been as technical (read as *not* two wine geeks chatting after 4-5 glasses) as they might be. There aren't that many "high level" technical conversations here, more casual conversation. I will add that I think the tone of Peter's posts might have been more "how can I help you?" rather than "look, here's the facts, disagree if you want [dummy]."

An a former educator it's about helping people to learn at *their* speed and level of sophistication not about how the educator thinks it should be done. Plenty of of good professors and bad professors (as instructors). Delivery of knowledge is as important as the knowledge itself.

Anyway, directly typed from page 357 of The Oxford Companion to Wine, Second Edition:

hybrids, in common viticultural terms, the offspring of two varieties of different species, as distinct from a CROSS between two varieties of the same species (see VITIS for details of the various species of the vine genus.) EUROPEAN UNION authorities prefer the somewhat cumbersome term 'interspecific cross' to the word hybrid, which has pejorative connotations within Europe.

Hybrids can occur naturally by cross-pollination, as happened, for example, in early American viticulture (see AMERICAN HYBRIDS). More commonly, however, hybrids have been deliberately produced by man (see NEW VARIETIES and VINE BREEDING) to combine in the progeny of some of the desirable characteristics of the parents. The viticultural activity was particularly important in the late 19th century when European, and especially French, breeders tried to combine the desirable wine quality of European VINIFERA varieties with AMERICAN VINE SPECIES' resistance to introduced American pests and diseases, especially the PHYLLOXERA louse, which was devastating European vineyards (see FRENCH HYBRIDS).

[Four more paragraphs follow, left out for copyright reasons and shit like that. The basics needed here get covered above.]

Edited by Marc Hanes (07-09-2009 02:26:46)
Edit Reason: typo

#353953 - 07-09-2009 14:15:40 Re: Hybrid Grapes - Well they ever be accepted? [Re: Peter May]
Carole Meredith Offline

Registered: 02-20-2004 03:10:26
Posts: 50
Loc: Mount Veeder, Napa, California
I don't think Durif was an intentional cross. Mr. Durif described his new variety as a "seedling of Peloursin". He never mentioned Syrah, so I don't think he ever knew that it was the pollen parent. I think he planted seeds from Peloursin fruit, evaluated the seedlings and chose one of them to release and name after himself. If he had made a deliberate cross between Peloursin and Syrah, he would have described it as such.

Most seedlings from a vinifera variety will be the result of self-pollination, but a few will be the result of pollination from other nearby vines. In a commercial, single-variety vineyard, nearby vines would be the same variety, but Mr. Durif was a nurseryman and would have had a lot of different varieties in his experimental vineyard (including, presumably, Syrah). So one would expect that some of his seedlings would be crosses between Peloursin and other varieties.

Carole Meredith
Lagier Meredith Vineyard

#353957 - 07-09-2009 15:17:43 Re: Hybrid Grapes - Well they ever be accepted? [Re: Carole Meredith]
Peter May Offline

Registered: 07-04-2009 09:44:59
Posts: 12
Loc: England

Thanks for that informative update, Carole.

Much appreciated.

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